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Discus Dancer 44" (Read 5958 times)
Ployd

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Discus Dancer 44"
Aug 27th, 2006 at 7:43am
 
Hi All

As threatened, I have made a start on the next Twirly Hurly and have kept with the Dancer theme.

I have chosen to stick with the interesting wing construction as it offers light weight with strength.

The wing area is 12.8 sq DM (198.42 sq") which makes it about 6.5 sq" larger than a sheet of 9.5mm (3/8") x 4" x 48" which is close enough for a comparison of weights. The wing "as you see it" weighs 49.5 grams and comprises a sheet of 6lb, 1.0mm and the leading edge section from 5.5lb, 8.0mm balsa (keep those weights in mind). Via a complicated mathematical process, I worked backward to see what density timber I would need to reach its current weight. Would you believe 4.5lb.
To make a useable wing most would choose 6lb stock which weighs 111 grams and after shaping and sanding would have a wing that tips the scales at 63.83 grams and that does not include the Basswood leading edge, carbon reinforcing (which the Spin-up 36 needs; see British Nats photo) or any sort of surface finish. Now you can understand why I have gone this way.

Ployd
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Ployd

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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #1 - Aug 27th, 2006 at 7:47am
 
As a further to, I have included a plan view with the major dimensions although the moment arm length is not fixed but it is fairly close.

The stab is finished and weighs 2.8 grams and was cut from 6lb, 2.5mm sheet.

Ployd
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kevin m
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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #2 - Aug 27th, 2006 at 4:32pm
 
At this rate mate, you are gonna be flying A2's...... out of curiosity, how big will you go span wise? Come to think of it, how big are we prepared to go before we start to lose performance over weight and ability?
If you get a minute, would you photo the area where the peg is to go and show me that in detail please.  Am interested in close ups and also, the way you are joining the wing to the fuz.  Are you capping the ribs, whats the D box made of? carbon spars in there at all?
Am interested and I applaud your continued enthusiasm.
Best wishes
Kev
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Ployd

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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #3 - Aug 28th, 2006 at 7:13am
 
Kev, don't put thoughts in my head as I have a couple of A/2's that could be converted Wink As to how big? Andy and Phil have flown 60" span models and I have an old A/1 that is bigger than the DD that at a pinch would work in discus mode but that will have to wait.

The wing construction I have used is all based around the use of solid balsa (which means the Dee box is solid) and I have sandwiched carbon between the bottom sheet and solid top section then took a leaf out of George's book and inlayed the top strip of carbon so that it is flush with the top surface. All ribs are capped with 4 thou carbon. More details tomorrow night.

Ployd
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Ployd

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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #4 - Aug 29th, 2006 at 7:09am
 
Hi Kev

In response to the question re the wing construction, the photo below should answer your request.

Ployd
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Ployd

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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #5 - Aug 29th, 2006 at 7:21am
 
Regarding the finger post, it should placed in the Morris Dancer topic, but that is now closed.

The position of the finger post is subject to the size of the fliers hand as the tip sits between the index and third finger up against the web between the 2 fingers so the post will be anywhere between the 2 dimensions I have quoted.
On the MD the post is placed behind an imaginary line drawn at 90 degrees to the CG position and this has not been discussed on the forum but my feeling it should be inline with the CG or as close as possible to it; thoughts anyone ???

The post is reinforced with 2 layers of 1oz glass cloth (top and bottom surfaces) which is glued to the wing before the hole is drilled and it should be a tight fit.

Ployd
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aprivpilot
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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #6 - Aug 30th, 2006 at 9:34am
 
Quote:
Regarding the finger post, it should placed in the Morris Dancer topic, but that is now closed.

The position of the finger post is subject to the size of the fliers hand as the tip sits between the index and third finger up against the web between the 2 fingers so the post will be anywhere between the 2 dimensions I have quoted.
On the MD the post is placed behind an imaginary line drawn at 90 degrees to the CG position and this has not been discussed on the forum but my feeling it should be inline with the CG or as close as possible to it; thoughts anyone ???

The post is reinforced with 2 layers of 1oz glass cloth (top and bottom surfaces) which is glued to the wing before the hole is drilled and it should be a tight fit.

Ployd


Speaking with no DLG experience, I tend to agree with you on the for and aft finger post placement.  However, should the angle to the wing also put it through the CG?  At 90 degrees to the tip it would seem that there would be more top finger pressure than bottom.  Does this happen or matter?

Also, have you worked out the moments and wing and stab dihedral angles yet?  What are you using for a tailboom on this model?

One last question(for now!).  How did you inset the CF spars into the solid wing LE?  Some sort of sanding jig?

Thanks,

Rey
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kevin m
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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #7 - Aug 30th, 2006 at 1:16pm
 
Now these are excellent pics and I thank you for them.  My only worry is the carbon on top and under the wing. Given that there will be a certain degree of flex in the wing on the climb - forces excerted, that would give potential for the carbon to split away from the D box - the top would effectively slacken and the bottom tighten. As a suggestion that would increase the rigidity of the spar, make it seperatly and that way, you could wrap kevlar thread round the structure and decrease the slacken on the top of the wing when it flexes.  Then adhere a solid balsa D box to the spar.
Maybe too much FAI in me here as I made em like that - would be interested to see / know from you if you have had any seperation though.
Keep the pics coming please.  They are inspiring.
Kev Wink
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iflyhlg

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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #8 - Aug 30th, 2006 at 4:42pm
 
Hello Kevin, Bruce K here. On a DLG wing the forces at work are a little different from a standard HLG. The wing spar on top is under tension during the spin  because the model is trying to flatten out the dihedral from the mass of the fuselage and then under compresion after the launch when the model starts to climbout from the launch. I do think that a wrapped spar would be better but if the surfaces are clean and the carbon is oil free (finger oil) you can get a satisfactory bond between the carbon and the balsa.
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Ployd

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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #9 - Aug 31st, 2006 at 7:01am
 
Hi All

First another photo to give you an idea of size verses the Morris Dancer, big ain't it  Shocked

Kev me old fruit; Bruce is right about the forces involved and the carbon strips are cleaned and epoxied straight to the balsa with weights on top to get a good bond, you need to step back from the FAI thing as the panel sizes are small (see plan) and Kevlar would be an overkill. The bottom carbon spar is locked in place by being the meat in the sandwich, it goes nowhere Wink And there is no Dee box, it's a solid leading edge.

Rey; what I did was took a stick of spruce about 1/4" wide, 1/2 rounded one end then with a steel ruler as a guide, indented the balsa and scored a line the length of the panel light enough for the carbon strip to sit in.

The moment arm dimension is now fixed at 20" and the dihedral on the stab is 1.5" per side. The boom will be a GForce SUL (I have a few of them) as they appear to have adequate stiffness for a modest weight.

With no experience with DLG's other than the short time spent with Len I stuck the finger pin as indicated on the photo and I found no appreciable increase in pressure on the top part, if any thing it equals out once you get twirling.

As of this posting I can now report that the wing is finished ready for gluing to the yet to be made fuselage. It came in at 56.8 grams which is 1/2 gram lighter than the Morris Dancer wing BUT is 36% larger in area which I calculate as being about 20 grams less than equivalent all balsa wing  Grin

Ployd
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« Last Edit: Aug 31st, 2006 at 7:44am by Ployd »  

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aprivpilot
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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #10 - Aug 31st, 2006 at 2:38pm
 
Thanks Ployd,

I tend to make things more complicated than they need to be. Angry

BTW, did you ever try the foam injection or any other way to further stiffen the G Force boom? There was some discussion about this a few threads ago.

Rey
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kevin m
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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #11 - Aug 31st, 2006 at 4:12pm
 
Ployd , Bruce et al
Thanks for the comments (have now removed my FAI hat and reverted to one that shows more hair than I have). Understand more about the stresses on the airplane and was suprised that they were opposite to what I thought.   - my lack of knowledge showing through and wanting to know so much more than I do already. Keep the pics coming please. All parts of the model which we can all use as references for the future.

My latest suggestion is that you make a box large enough to be transported safely with the models in..... then  ship em all over here to me for extensive testing Grin Grin Wink  heck you cant blame me for trying can you!!!!!  Your workman ship is excellent. One I will aspire to build to.
Kev
spinning himself off to bed to dream of thermals again!
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gossie

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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #12 - Aug 31st, 2006 at 10:05pm
 
Hi Ployd,
                I saw Len Surtees doing his "twirly hurly" thing a couple of weeks ago when we went up to Maryborough Queensland for a fly.
Very impressive, lots of height and a nice glide.   Sorry, no pics though.
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Ployd

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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #13 - Sep 1st, 2006 at 7:14am
 
Hi Rey

Initially I was worried about boom flex when considering what type of boom to use (I was going to go with a balsa core carbon covered structure) but wiser heads suggested the use of a carbon boom for durability and being lazy went with the idea. The test flying did not show up any problems in the form of an erratic launch pattern so the idea of foam filling was quietly layed to rest.

Kev; your idea is not as silly as it sounds, no promises Wink

Ployd
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« Last Edit: Sep 1st, 2006 at 7:16am by Ployd »  
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glidermaster

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Re: Discus Dancer 44"
Reply #14 - Sep 1st, 2006 at 11:22am
 
Ployd,
Much better to send them to Canada, it's much calmer here than the wilds of northern England - and I promise not to let George test them - he's taken to losing too many gliders, it might not be safe............
John
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